Nicole Laino 

Hello, and welcome to the Limitless Entrepreneur Podcast. I’m your host, Nicole Laino. And I am here with Cheryl Oliver. She is a copywriter who specializes in sales pages that convert. And I’m so excited to have you here because copywriting I think, is one of those like Achilles heels for a lot of entrepreneurs, and particularly sales pages, myself included. I don’t, I don’t particularly care for, enjoy writing a sales page. Because I think it’s one of those things that the program is your baby. And you’re, you know, talking about it, and what it can feel like boasting about it can sometimes feel unnatural for a lot of us, we’re a little bit too close to it. So first of all, Cheryl, just please introduce yourself to the audience. Tell them a little bit about you. And then we’ll jump into the whole thing.

Cheryl Oliver 

Right. Hi, Nicole, thanks so much for having me here. I’m really, really excited to be here it’s my first podcast actually, thanks so much for inviting me on. And I’m Cheryl Oliver, I have been building funnels for two years for coaches and course creators. I started out just with the sort of tech and automation pieces, and then just got more and more and more involved in the marketing side and the strategy. And I just, you know, I dove deeper. I did Facebook ads for a while. And then I landed eventually on sales pages as a niche, because that was my favorite part. And one of the most important parts of the funnel, without a good sales page, the rest of the funnel will fall flat. So I stopped I ended up on sales pages. And that’s where I found my sweet spot. So, go ahead.

Nicole Laino 

No, I was just gonna say like so. So you found sales pages, they were your favorite, why?

Cheryl Oliver 

I think it’s just actually really fell in love with copywriting, to be honest. There’s like a strategy behind it, there’s a thought process, there’s a whole structure to it. And actually, you really have to like, dive into the psyche of people to speak to them on the level that that’s going to connect with them emotionally and logically. And those were all the parts that I really loved. And actually really, I’m really quite really interested in like psychology and how people think and feel. And I’m quite empathic as well. So I can kind of think like other people, and I could put myself in other people’s shoes a lot. So I enjoy kind of, sort of inhabiting those different places and writing as if I was that person and felt like that person and needed this problem solved.

Nicole Laino 

It’s a great skill to have. And I love how you’re thinking about it. Because while I am trained in copywriting sales pages was not, it was never my favorite place to land. Particularly because there’s two forms. And I’d love to know what your–do you specialize in a short form or a long form sales page? Or do you do like, do you have a preference?

Cheryl Oliver 

I do have a preference, I love long form sales pages, mostly just because I feel like they get people on all the different levels. So you can do a short form sales page, and they can convert for specific types of offers. And depending on how aware your buyer is, and how sophisticated the market is. But I think that most of the time people need to be, there’s loads of different buyers. And some of them convert because of emotional connection. And some of them convert because of logical. And without those different components, you’re leaving out a large percentage of your audience by only catering to the logical or their emotional bias.

Nicole Laino 

And talk to me then about–so let’s focus on the long form. How does somebody know which one is right for them? Is there a reason to go short form versus long form? Does it have to do with like, cold audience, warmer audience? How do you decide which one? Would somebody, if somebody is listening to this, decide if they need a short or a long?

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, there’s so there’s quite a few different factors. Price is one of them. So if the offer is fairly cheap, then you can go slightly shorter. Market sophistication is one of them. So if you’re in a market where there’s loads of competition, and the market really knows what the product is, and you wouldn’t have to do any kind of education around that you can go slightly shorter. If you, yes, like you said cold traffic versus warm traffic. I know a lot of coaches who spend large amounts of time nurturing their audiences in Facebook groups, they don’t have to do long form sales pages, because their audience really knows them very well. They trust them already. By the time they get to the sales page they’re 50% sold already. So you could do a shorter form sales page there. If you add a video at the top, you could also do a shorter form sales page because you’re using a lot of that space to actually you know, using the video instead of like, instead of writing. And so yeah, a few different factors. So it would just depend on the situation.

Nicole Laino 

So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, what are the elements of a successful long form sales page? What is the like, what’s the overall goal? And then what do you need to have in it to make sure that you’re achieving that goal? I mean, obviously, conversion is the goal. But what is the goal with like, you talked a little bit about building an emotional connection and hitting different buyers? Can you talk a little bit about the structure of a sales page and the elements of it and why?

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, of course, I mean, you get different structures of sales pages, there’s loads of different ones, the one that I really like, and the one that I was kind of taught when I did my certification as a master marketer with FG Society, they go through the specific structure. So it starts with the headline. And obviously, that’s your hook, you’re going to draw people in, you’re going to tell them that they’re in the right place, and that this offer is for them. And you do that all in your headline. So it’s one of the hardest parts  to write. Then you move on to the problem. So you connect with people, you tell them that they’re in that you know what the problem is, what problem it is that you want to solve for them. And then you move on to the solution. So how it would feel if they solved that problem. So and that’s when you kind of connect with what motivates them to buy, so how would their life look like if they solved this problem. Then you would go on to normally add in the about section at that stage. So you’re gonna build rapport, you’re gonna tell them that, you know, that they can trust you, that you know what you’re talking about, then you move on to the introduction of your offer. And this particular sales page works really well for group programs and courses, because you are talking, you’re going to introduce your offer at this point. That doesn’t work for all things, because like, if it’s a service, you wouldn’t use that, you wouldn’t use the structure. So at that point, you would introduce your offer. And then you would talk about the benefits of the offer, which are not the features, it’s the benefits. So what they’re going to walk away with, in terms of you know, and that could be emotional, what they walk away with emotionally, what they would walk away with, in lots of different terms, but not necessarily like the nuts and bolts of the course or program, then you move on to the features. And that’s where you would just talk about what’s included, like, what do they get out of the tangible things that they get in the program? And then what’s next?

Nicole Laino 

That’s okay. I mean, we’re kind of covering a lot. And let’s just go back to some of that and talk about where a lot of this comes from. So I would think that the prerequisite for writing a sales page is really having an intimate knowledge of why someone would buy and who that person is, and exactly who that person is. And what work do you suggest people do around finding that? I mean, I call it an aligned client. But what work do you suggest people do in order to get ready to build their sales page, and in order to get ready to build their program? Because one of the interesting things that I’ve found, I worked with a coach who suggested making the sales page before you made the program. And let the sales page, because when you’re getting into the mind of why someone will buy, you’re getting into the mind of the problems that they have and what you’re solving for, what the benefits are, what do they want, then you reverse engineer the program, so that you’re looking at it from that standpoint, rather than being like these would be cool things to have in the program. And then when you go to write the benefits, you’re like, I don’t know if it really solves for all of that. So what’s the work that you have people do? Or do you do this as a copywriter? Do you do any of the digging for them? What do people present to you in order to have a successful relationship with you and have you build a successful sales page for them?

Cheryl Oliver 

So it was quite a few questions.

Nicole Laino 

Yeah, go with that last one, and then we’ll and then we’ll backtrack. Sorry, I tend to free flow. So what does someone present you with, and have that be the most successful relationship?

Cheryl Oliver 

So some of my clients have got a lot of information already from the ideal clients. So like one of my favorite clients, she’s got a ton of information because she writes down and she tracks everything that people told her in the questions that she asked from her Facebook group. So she uses group leads. And everything gets put into a spreadsheet. So she’s got loads and loads, she’s got like 3000 people in your group. So she’s got about 3000 answers in the spreadsheet about like, what the problem is around sales. Some of my clients don’t have any of that. So, and I do a combination of, if they’ve got some of that, that’s great. I probably still will do a bit of my own digging because it’s always good to go and confirm. But if they don’t have any of that information, I’ll just do a bit more digging, but I do about a day’s worth of market research. Where I actually go and look through, I go and find similar courses, similar books on Amazon, I ask questions in Facebook groups, you know, just to confirm things, like whether people actually even realize what the problem is. If they have tried a specific solution, why that didn’t work for them, why they chose that solution. So multiple different, you know, questions, and then I go and ask these questions in like maybe three or four different groups, and then I go, and I copy out those answers, and then use them, save them out in a Google Doc, so that I can refer back to them. So that’s kind of where I start. And like I said, and then use that in combination with whatever the client actually has available. But to be honest, a lot of people don’t have that kind of information available.

Nicole Laino 

I was gonna say, do you most people have this? I know, you mentioned like, one of your favorite clients. But do most people, and you’re saying no, most people don’t have all of this? Because I find I make my people do market research, and they hate me for it until they do it. And then they’re like, oh, my God, this is gold. Oh, my God, I understand so much more, oh, my God, I understand how like, suddenly, the page starts to write itself or the content starts to write itself when you know what people want, when you know what their problems are and what you’re solving for, in their words, and you can start using their language, it makes it so much more specific. And so market research, it’s such an essential part, isn’t it of this process?

Cheryl Oliver 

I did a sales page for a discovery call framework. It was a low ticket offer. And it was all about inquiry, like being able to do discovery calls better. And one of my favorite parts of the sales page, I actually got from something that someone actually told me in a group, and she said, she hates discovery calls because they always feel like a bad first date. And I just love this, it’s such a great analogy. And it was one of the first things that I added on to the sales page. And that sales page did really well because I actually used someone’s real words and it connects with people because they’re like, yeah, it does. It absolutely does. It’s awkward. You always feel embarrassed, you feel, you don’t like asking for the sale. You know, you just get that absolute feeling where you’re like, oh, no, this person knows exactly how I feel. And so yeah, the goals that you find when you actually speak to people about their real problems is amazing.  A bad first date, isn’t it? A lot of discovery calls. That is such a great analogy. Because you are sort of like waiting there at the end of night being like you’re gonna invite me up? Do I ask myself? Do I kind of are you going? Am I gonna get an invitation? Yeah, it’s super duper awkward. So yeah, that that’s so powerful. And one of the things I just did an episode where I talked about this, but do you agree that the key to great copywriting is being specific? And what that means to the person. So that’s such a specific reference, bad first date. Like that conjures up an image. People are like, oh, yeah, it, it says all the words. It’s awkward. It’s uncomfortable for everybody. We don’t know where it’s going to end. Nobody knows who’s leading. You know, you’re worried about what they’re gonna think or overstepping bounds. So much is said from that one little line. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. So the more specific you can be, which obviously means that the person, the owner of the business, the person asking me to do the copywriting really needs to know who they’re speaking to. And that can be quite tricky, because I think people are very scared of niching down, they’re very scared of like, excluding people. But actually, great copy comes when you are really, really specific, and you can talk to just one person. So yes, that particular analogy was great, because it was just it really did conjure up all those feelings of like any, any person that’s ever done a discovery call will know that feeling, especially when you first start out. Like the bad first date analogy. I also read someone else’s sales page the other day, which I thought was amazing, where they were targeting designers. And she said something about never having to have final underscore final underscore final underscore client name dot file dot TXT record or something like that was just speaking about like the designers, and having a process where they are organized, so that they never have to have all these files that are just like random files on their hard drive that they can’t remember which one it is. And I just thought that that final final final text record or something was just so funny, because it’s absolutely what designers do. They do 100 versions of something and then they forget which version is the right one.

Nicole Laino 

Right? Yeah. And that’s so specific to that audience. That person that’s, if you’ve done it, you get it. If you don’t, if you haven’t done it, then you might not get it. But guess what, you’re not the person that they’re trying to sell this thing to. So you have to get out of that wanting to please everybody or wanting to sell to everybody and really honing in on the voice of that one person.

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, exactly. And that’s so that’s that famous saying, like, you’ve just tried to speak to everyone you speak to no one. And it’s a cliche at this point, because everyone, I’ve heard it so many times. But it is so true. Because that’s exactly what happens. We try to speak to everyone and I’ve read so many sales pages, where you could see they’re just trying to be really generic, because they don’t really want to, they don’t want to narrow down, they don’t want to speak to someone, and it just doesn’t end up really connecting with anyone.

Nicole Laino 

Yeah. And so is there something that you start with a sales page? So you went through a lot of the sections? Are you going at it section by section? Or do you start with kind of like, this is what I hope to accomplish with this, this is the voice that I’m trying to grab? Is there some sort of guiding, like principle or framework that you’re working within? Or are you just going section by section and chipping away at it that way?

Cheryl Oliver 

So I start with the market research, then I pull in a bunch of notes, and I put everything together where I kind of start going, this is the central idea of what I’m trying to convey. And especially when my client’s got a really great voice, I start pulling in bits of the things that she has said specifically about the offer or her client, and highlighting those in places and going this I really want to include. And when I do that, the feeling of the page starts emerging to me. And once I have that in place, I feel like I’m completely in my client’s voice and head, then I write. Because for me, I’m like, now I’m ready, I feel like I am Michelle, I feel like I am Cory. And I’m like, now I can write like them. And then I start. And I normally start in the middle of the page where we start talking about the introduction to the program, and the benefits and the features because that’s the easy section to write. Once you know the offer, it’s quite easy to write those parts. The hard part is the emotional connection. So the top part of the page, which is normally like your unique mechanisms, so your unique selling point, and the pain and the solution, those bits are the hardest. And then the headline I write absolutely last, because once I’ve written the whole page out, I can go to the headline and the headline flows a bit easier. But to start with the headline, you end up getting really stuck, because you’re like, it’s such a hard part to write.

Nicole Laino 

You go nowhere, you get stuck on that you’re just like no, it’s not that, it’s not that, no, it’s not that. And then you feel really defeated. Because you’re looking at a whole empty page underneath it, like, make yourself feel kind of successful. Get really clear on a couple of aspects. And I love what you’re describing about like bringing in some elements of the client’s voice and some of the benefits and some of those things that are more the low hanging fruit and the things that really shape what makes it unique. And almost like an artist would sketch first, almost like you know, where they’re gonna, they’re gonna do a rough sketch, then they’re gonna start to darken those lines, and they’re gonna start to shade and color things in. And then it all starts to like, come together and becomes something and then it’s got dimension, and then it’s got all this movement to it. And that is what you kind of want from a sales page, it should have dimension, it should have movement to it. It’s not just it isn’t just facts, because that’s not why people buy, people don’t buy because of like, it checks the box. I mean, I might do that with like, a generator. You know, if I’m like, I’m buying a generator for my house does it have this, does it have this, does it have this? But the reason I’m looking for a generator is because I don’t want to be without power. And I want that sense of security. And I want to feel like I’m prepared. That’s what’s prompting me to start my search. Once I get there, you know, you can tell me that it’s the most reliable and it can run all of these things. And it’s like, okay, you’re building up my security, then it’s like, okay, now does it take gas or electric? Is it this or that? Is it that or that? Then it’s about the features. So that’s kind of what you were describing, and that’s a really crude example. But, but that’s sort of what you were describing in a way that you’re warming people up. And the features are almost like a, you know, an now here’s a list of all the things that you got, but you should be sold by that point. And then it should be about like, okay, does it have all the things that I want? I want it. Let me just now look through. And then kind of the purpose of that is more to just be like, look at all it has. You’re sold, now look at this big list of things. It’s more than you could ever want.

Cheryl Oliver 

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I love your analogy of the artist. I’ve never thought about it that way. But that’s a really, really good way. I did want to also pick out on what you said about writing the sales page first before you even create the offer. And that’s one of the things that I was also taught in the certification that I did by my mentor, Julie Stoian. And she actually recommends that you do that. And I love that. And I’ve done that for my own girls, actually. And I’ve started doing that now because I want to create a new offer. And I started with the sales page. And as I started writing the sales page, I realized all the components that I need for this offer, and I was like, wow, this is going to be great, this is going to be a great offer. Because now I know what needs to go into the offer to make it hit all the points of the objections of the buyer, or someone who wants to write their first sales page, I have to go and I have to go, this is what they need. This is what they need. These are the things that they’re going to go, but does it have this? What if I can’t do that? What if I’m not techie? You know, what if I’m not a designer? What software am I going to use? You know, all of these things? So yeah, it’s very powerful.

Nicole Laino 

Yeah, well, it takes care of so much. If you make the offer, and you create the offer first, and you haven’t thought about how you will sell it, you’ve just spent a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of energy, creating something, and not knowing if someone is going to buy it or how. There’s so much power in building that part out first, thinking that through and really making that powerful, and then it’s kind of like, oh, well, I know it’s a no brainer, because I came at it from a place of how would I sell this. And most people don’t want to start there. Because we fall in love with the idea that we have. And the idea of like, when someone’s in my program, and I go through, you know, I’m making them, they’re looking to start their program, and they’re like, okay, I want to build out my program, and I hand them a sheet that’s basically about how to formulate their offer, and how they will sell it, and how they will market it. And they’re like, no, but I have to create the program. I’m like, no, no, no, you have to do this first. And then I tell them to do market research, and they’re like, what? I don’t want to do market research. And they all resist it. But it’s always the most valuable thing that you can do. And it takes care of so much. And it honestly will tell you if the offer is not worth making, or maybe, usually there’s a pivot in there someplace.

Cheryl Oliver 

Yes, yes, I’ve done a lot of, I’ve advised that to so many people. And I can’t remember anyone that actually took me up on it. When I first started out building funnels for clients. I started with very beginner entrepreneurs, and I was trying to help them build their first funnel, which I realized and then after a while. The reason I know so much about the ideal client now because I went to the very beginning and I was trying to help brand new entrepreneurs create their first funnel. And then I was like, these people don’t, they don’t know what their offer is, they don’t know who their ideal client is. There’s so many things that they need first before they could build the funnel. And then I was like, okay, so I need to reach a different client to be able to build funnels for people, because the beginners don’t, they’re not ready for funnels. And so I kept moving forward until I was like, oh, this is the person that I need to speak to because they’re ready now. They’re ready at this point, they’ve done this, they’ve done this, they’ve done this. But yet, there’s so many times where I was trying to build a funnel for someone and they were like, well, I’m just building out the program at the moment. And so it’ll be ready in like six months time. And then you can build the funnel and I was like, no, no, don’t do that. You don’t need to build it out, you need to build the funnel, let’s market it, sell it, and then you build it as you go. Because what’s going to happen is people are going to tell you what they need, then you’re going to take them through the program, you do the live trainings, and then you go okay, they’re struggling with this part, they probably need maybe one extra week on this particular part because it’s taking them longer or they’re struggling with this, maybe I should add something in to help them along. You know, rather than building out a whole program and then you take people through it and they go, this is not what I needed. This is not what I wanted, or it’s taking them much longer, or you put it the wrong way around, you know? They needed to work on this first before that.

Nicole Laino 

It’s such people pleaser energy usually when they’re in that space because they want to provide everything, they want to build out this program, they want to dazzle people with it. And they get caught up in that, and it’s such a distraction and a leak of their energy. It is not channeling it where it belongs, where you’re directing them to is where it belongs. Would you say that that’s one of the biggest mistakes you see people making is putting like the cart before the horse and building things out first when they go to, with their copywriting and sales page in general? Or are there other mistakes that you think are worth calling out?

Cheryl Oliver 

So when so when I was working with very beginner entrepreneurs then yes, I would say that they were spending, it was definitely part of like procrastination, imposter syndrome. You know, they were in creation mode. So instead of just marketing and selling, which is the scary part, it’s the hard part, they would go into creation mode. Which I’ve done many, many times. So I know exactly what that entails and what it looks like. And so I could recognize it. But that is, that was one of the mistakes that I saw early on, I don’t see it so much anymore. Now that I’m working with people that are a little bit further along, I would say that one of the biggest mistakes I see now is actually just not really doing any market research. So not letting, you know, thinking that they know their ideal client when they haven’t actually really spoken to them or even. And also data. Data is a big thing, like people not actually tracking their results and their conversions is a big thing.

Nicole Laino 

Right, right. And what type of conversion should somebody be expecting from a well performing sales page.

Cheryl Oliver 

So a sales page is actually converting perfectly well if it’s doing anything more than 1 or 2%. That would be your minimum and up to 10% is really, really good. And that, but that obviously depends on the warmth of your audience and a bunch of factors. But or to a cold audience, you would expect anything from one to 10%. And then of course, you know, if you’ve got a warm audience, your page can convert. I mean, I’ve got a coach that I work with, I work in her membership as a copy coach, she had a page that she had a great offer, really warm audience, the page was converting at 75%. So it is possible to to go all the way up to there.

Nicole Laino 

Wow, I like that. I’ll take a 75% converting sales page any day. You know, you heard it here first kids, market research, market research, market research, if there’s a headline for this episode, it’s market research. Because it really is so essential. And I think people, you know, there’s a combination of things. They don’t want to put people out by asking them to do interviews or to do surveys, they don’t want to appear like they don’t know, they don’t want to bother people. There’s all these reasons that we don’t dive into it. Sometimes it’s just more comfortable for us to hide in the back office than to step out front and ask people a question, what if they don’t respond? What if they don’t? What if they get upset that I asked them this question? What if I only had this one chance to ask them for a favor? And this was the one I asked them for? Guess what? It’s the most valuable favor you could ask of somebody. And you can offer them something in exchange. You can you can make it worth their while if you’re so inclined. But it will pay dividends. And is it, what are you having people look for in the market research, most of all?

Cheryl Oliver 

So, I ask them to, I would say mostly people’s own words, I think that’s the most important piece that you’re going to look for is describing the what they think the problem is, making sure that you know what words they use to describe that particular problem, the problem that you’re solving, or that you want to solve with your program. And what else? Mostly it’s the problem. I think what happens is often we think as the experts, we think we know what they think the problem is, we know what the problem is, obviously we know what the problem is. But we don’t realize that they might think the problem is something else. So that’s also something you need to look out for. So if you’re, say, a health coach, and you’re helping people with weight loss, you assume that they know that the problem is their mindset, because you’ve been doing this for 10 years and every single person you’ve ever worked with has a mindset problem. But the truth is that they still believe that the problem is a veteran have enough time enough money, or they got the wrong genes. They you know, whatever the multitude of reasons that we come up with that we can’t lose weight. But the truth is, it’s a mindset problem. So you’re speaking to the mindset problem and say, oh, you can’t imagine it. You can’t picture it. And the people are going, no, that’s not the problem. So when that’s really important when you’re doing market research is to make sure that you know what they think is the problem and so that you can mirror that back to them and say, yes, I can fix their problem. I can make it go faster, easier, quicker. And then on the back end, you go, oh, no, no, let’s talk about the mindset.

Nicole Laino 

Right, let’s sell them what they want, give them what they need. It also helps in your, you know, that’s how you can become a thought leader, is by being able to turn people’s perceived problems and their perceived solutions that they think would be their answer, and tell them it’s actually not that. I know why you think that. You think it because of x, y, and z. But what actually is happening is a, b, c, and this is how you would actually solve that. And this is why when you can start framing things that way, when you and start turning people’s ideas, thoughts, and their perception of their problems and solutions on their head and show them a new way of thinking about it. You’ve just now changed everything. Now you’ve interrupted the pattern. They think that they know, they think they know what they’re looking for. So they’re going down your sales page looking at the features being like, nope, it doesn’t have this, doesn’t have this, doesn’t have this. Well, tell them why. And then all of a sudden, now they don’t know what to look for. And now they’re looking at you as this amazing expert. Well, I never thought of it that way. That must be why nothing has worked for me so far. It’s such an opportunity.

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, I think another thing that people really struggle with is their unique selling proposition. So like, what makes them different? And it’s something that I absolutely, I completely understand, because it’s one of those hard things because you look at your own business and you’ve got no idea what makes you different. And it always needs someone else to look in from the outside and say, well, this makes you different, I could see it really clearly. That’s also reading the reasons why you mentioned it right at the beginning, about the fact that people, that you struggled to write your own sales pages, because you’re in it. You know, you’re in your business, and it is really hard, I struggle to write my own sales pages, because it’s my offer, I’m too close to it. You need someone to look in from the outside, and they can see things much clearer than you can. They can see why it’s special, they could see why it’s different, they can see maybe why your clients might not actually see the problem. You know, there’s so many things that you can see from the outside that you might not be able to see within your own business.

Nicole Laino 

It took me a long time. And I still don’t, like, I don’t think that I do it best. I can do it. I don’t think that I do it as well as somebody else can do it, me giving them the information that I have. Me like, I have done all that background work. So I could say like, this is my person, this is what they’re saying, this is all this stuff. This is what I do. This is how I do it. This is what they say about me. This is how I’m helping people, and then just let it go. It always comes out better than when I put it together myself. Because there’s an element of humble that doesn’t belong in your sales page. It requires you to be a little bit more boastful and bold. And that can be uncomfortable for a lot of us. It took me a long time to do answer the “this is why I’m awesome” question with power and confidence. I can do that when I’m in front of somebody, when I’m writing it out in a long form sales page where you’re forced to repeat it over and over and over again in all these different ways. And I’m just like somebody else do this for me. I don’t, I don’t need to, I know that I’m not doing this as well, someone can prop me up a lot better than I can do it myself in this format. So it is worth hiring out. It is worth being able to lean on an expert who can frame these things in the right way. Because there is an art to this. It isn’t just words on a page, it isn’t just a matter of like, you know, the right template, although that helps if you’re just starting. Templates are great. If you can’t afford a copywriter. And if you haven’t done that background work of knowing who your ideal client is, knowing what your message really is, and how you help people, then you have to start there. You’ll be tempted to go for the other stuff, you’ll be tempted to hire a copywriter and I did an entire episode on this, about like how I wasted a ton of money because I went to a copywriter too soon. I thought they would solve my problem, they cannot give you your message. They can help you find it. But you will pay for that. If you don’t have the funds to do that. That’s what programs like mine are designed to do are to get you copywriter ready, or to get you to the point where you can, you can fly and you can hire people to bring them in or you can write it yourself. But the goal is to offload this stuff to experts so that you’re increasing your conversions, but you’re increasing the effectiveness of everything that you do. And you’re taking away anything you’re not an expert in and you’re not doing it and somebody else is doing that for you.

Cheryl Oliver 

Absolutely. So you can concentrate on the things that you’re good at and maybe talk about niching and there’s niching for a reason. I niched into sales pitch because, and I’ve become really good at them because that’s what I do. And you are really good at being a business coach because that’s what you do. You’re not going to go and write sales pages because it’s not what you do and it’s a waste of your time. And you could be concentrating on what you do the best, right?

Nicole Laino 

Exactly. And I even niched down further where I specifically help people with their message. I help people get to that point of owning their power and the mindset and messaging side is what I said that I help with. I got more specific. And the more specific you get, the more confident you are because you’re like, this is my jam. And if you’re working in your jam then you can talk about it with anybody, you’re so excited that they can’t help but be pulled in by it.

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, you can do it, you can do it faster, and you can charge more money for it. It’s amazing. It’s a great place to be.

Nicole Laino 

Boom. That’s the headline right there, you can do it faster and you can charge more money for it. It is your high ticket offer at low rent in your space. That is what you want more of. That is how you have a sustainable business. And not one where you’re leaking energy and doing things that you really shouldn’t be doing.

Cheryl Oliver 

Absolutely. And that’s where I started out, trying to do everything in marketing. You know, I did Facebook ads, I did funnels, I did the tech. And now I do, I still build funnels, but I have someone who does all the automations for me, I just couldn’t be bothered. It’s not my fun part. I don’t like it that much. My husband does the design for me. So I don’t have to do that anymore. So all I do is copy and it’s amazing.

Nicole Laino 

It’s beautiful. And, but it was probably great experience for you to see how everything worked, to understand that. So if you are sitting here listening to this, and you’re like, oh yeah, I’ve just been, I’ve been like this jack of all trades, or Jane of all trades. And I’ve been, you know, dabbling in all of this stuff. Sometimes that’s how you find your zone of genius, you need to try on a bunch of clothes before you can find the dress that’s like perfect for you. And you know, you kiss some frogs before you find your prince. And that happens. But you also walk away with all that knowledge. And as long as it’s in the realm of what you are planning to do you’ve learned lessons and you understand things on a deeper level.

Cheryl Oliver 

Absolutely. I mean, I wouldn’t have realized that I enjoy sales pages most unless I tried every part of the funnel before I realized this is my zone. This is my favorite. So there’s nothing wrong with trying it out. And actually, in fact, I feel like if you’re starting a group coaching program, and I had one of my first group coaching programs, they were like, first you have to pick a niche. And I was like, I’ve never done this in my life before. How do I pick a niche? You know what I mean? Like, and you almost, I feel like that’s the opposite. I feel like you do have to try a little bit of stuff to see what’s your favorite before you can really niche down.

Nicole Laino 

I love that you brought that up. And I think this is a great point to leave it on. Because I always tell people, there are several places you can start. And usually what you have to do is you’ve got to dabble in each of the spaces a little bit. So you dabble in the aligned client and you start thinking about what that person generally, what that person looks like, you’re not going to get to that niche niche niche in the beginning. So don’t push yourself to unless you are coming in with an expertise that is so obvious who your niche is. But a lot of times it’s saying like, what is my genius? What am I so uniquely good at? And that might start at a high level and you need to break that down and make that more finite. And then you dance between the two. Okay, well as I get more dialed in on my genius, that’s kind of informing exactly the person. And that gets, each gets more specific with a little bit more playing in each space. But it isn’t like okay, go through all the niche work and get down to your targeted targeted niche and then start working on your expertise, or then start working on this. It’s a dance. It’s not all so linear. Although it would be so much easier if it were, it’s just not. It’s more art than science in a lot of these ways.

Cheryl Oliver 

Absolutely.

Nicole Laino 

Well, I loved this conversation, I loved talking about sales pages and talking about so much more. I love that we touched on some funnels and the ways that we’re, the ways that people can really, and my favorite topic market research. Because I love, love, love that you brought that up. And I swear I did not prompt her to say that, market research. Like if you take anything away from this, know your person more it’s going to inform every single thing that you do. You want to increase conversions? Know your person better. Get a handle on their voice and that will inform everything that you do. So thank you for driving that point home. Thank you for everything that you shared. I love this conversation and tell everybody where they can stay in touch with you and where they can learn more about you.

Cheryl Oliver 

Thank you so much for having me, Nicole. This was lovely. It was lovely speaking to you. I agree with everything you have to say. You can find me, I have a Facebook group called Smart Profitable Coaches and Course Creators, come and join me there. And my website is CherylOliver.co. Short and sweet.

Nicole Laino 

Beautiful. Well thank you so much for being here. And thank you, listener for making it all the way to the end of this episode. I’ll leave you with what I always leave you with. A little parting words, some parting words for you. You are only limited by the limitations that you accept and when you stop accepting those limitations, that is when you become limitless. So go out there and be limitless everybody. See you in the next one.

Nicole Laino 

Hello, and welcome to the Limitless Entrepreneur Podcast. I’m your host, Nicole Laino. And I am here with Cheryl Oliver. She is a copywriter who specializes in sales pages that convert. And I’m so excited to have you here because copywriting I think, is one of those like Achilles heels for a lot of entrepreneurs, and particularly sales pages, myself included. I don’t, I don’t particularly care for, enjoy writing a sales page. Because I think it’s one of those things that the program is your baby. And you’re, you know, talking about it, and what it can feel like boasting about it can sometimes feel unnatural for a lot of us, we’re a little bit too close to it. So first of all, Cheryl, just please introduce yourself to the audience. Tell them a little bit about you. And then we’ll jump into the whole thing.

Cheryl Oliver 

Right. Hi, Nicole, thanks so much for having me here. I’m really, really excited to be here it’s my first podcast actually, thanks so much for inviting me on. And I’m Cheryl Oliver, I have been building funnels for two years for coaches and course creators. I started out just with the sort of tech and automation pieces, and then just got more and more and more involved in the marketing side and the strategy. And I just, you know, I dove deeper. I did Facebook ads for a while. And then I landed eventually on sales pages as a niche, because that was my favorite part. And one of the most important parts of the funnel, without a good sales page, the rest of the funnel will fall flat. So I stopped I ended up on sales pages. And that’s where I found my sweet spot. So, go ahead.

Nicole Laino 

No, I was just gonna say like so. So you found sales pages, they were your favorite, why?

Cheryl Oliver 

I think it’s just actually really fell in love with copywriting, to be honest. There’s like a strategy behind it, there’s a thought process, there’s a whole structure to it. And actually, you really have to like, dive into the psyche of people to speak to them on the level that that’s going to connect with them emotionally and logically. And those were all the parts that I really loved. And actually really, I’m really quite really interested in like psychology and how people think and feel. And I’m quite empathic as well. So I can kind of think like other people, and I could put myself in other people’s shoes a lot. So I enjoy kind of, sort of inhabiting those different places and writing as if I was that person and felt like that person and needed this problem solved.

Nicole Laino 

It’s a great skill to have. And I love how you’re thinking about it. Because while I am trained in copywriting sales pages was not, it was never my favorite place to land. Particularly because there’s two forms. And I’d love to know what your–do you specialize in a short form or a long form sales page? Or do you do like, do you have a preference?

Cheryl Oliver 

I do have a preference, I love long form sales pages, mostly just because I feel like they get people on all the different levels. So you can do a short form sales page, and they can convert for specific types of offers. And depending on how aware your buyer is, and how sophisticated the market is. But I think that most of the time people need to be, there’s loads of different buyers. And some of them convert because of emotional connection. And some of them convert because of logical. And without those different components, you’re leaving out a large percentage of your audience by only catering to the logical or their emotional bias.

Nicole Laino 

And talk to me then about–so let’s focus on the long form. How does somebody know which one is right for them? Is there a reason to go short form versus long form? Does it have to do with like, cold audience, warmer audience? How do you decide which one? Would somebody, if somebody is listening to this, decide if they need a short or a long?

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, there’s so there’s quite a few different factors. Price is one of them. So if the offer is fairly cheap, then you can go slightly shorter. Market sophistication is one of them. So if you’re in a market where there’s loads of competition, and the market really knows what the product is, and you wouldn’t have to do any kind of education around that you can go slightly shorter. If you, yes, like you said cold traffic versus warm traffic. I know a lot of coaches who spend large amounts of time nurturing their audiences in Facebook groups, they don’t have to do long form sales pages, because their audience really knows them very well. They trust them already. By the time they get to the sales page they’re 50% sold already. So you could do a shorter form sales page there. If you add a video at the top, you could also do a shorter form sales page because you’re using a lot of that space to actually you know, using the video instead of like, instead of writing. And so yeah, a few different factors. So it would just depend on the situation.

Nicole Laino 

So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, what are the elements of a successful long form sales page? What is the like, what’s the overall goal? And then what do you need to have in it to make sure that you’re achieving that goal? I mean, obviously, conversion is the goal. But what is the goal with like, you talked a little bit about building an emotional connection and hitting different buyers? Can you talk a little bit about the structure of a sales page and the elements of it and why?

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, of course, I mean, you get different structures of sales pages, there’s loads of different ones, the one that I really like, and the one that I was kind of taught when I did my certification as a master marketer with FG Society, they go through the specific structure. So it starts with the headline. And obviously, that’s your hook, you’re going to draw people in, you’re going to tell them that they’re in the right place, and that this offer is for them. And you do that all in your headline. So it’s one of the hardest parts  to write. Then you move on to the problem. So you connect with people, you tell them that they’re in that you know what the problem is, what problem it is that you want to solve for them. And then you move on to the solution. So how it would feel if they solved that problem. So and that’s when you kind of connect with what motivates them to buy, so how would their life look like if they solved this problem. Then you would go on to normally add in the about section at that stage. So you’re gonna build rapport, you’re gonna tell them that, you know, that they can trust you, that you know what you’re talking about, then you move on to the introduction of your offer. And this particular sales page works really well for group programs and courses, because you are talking, you’re going to introduce your offer at this point. That doesn’t work for all things, because like, if it’s a service, you wouldn’t use that, you wouldn’t use the structure. So at that point, you would introduce your offer. And then you would talk about the benefits of the offer, which are not the features, it’s the benefits. So what they’re going to walk away with, in terms of you know, and that could be emotional, what they walk away with emotionally, what they would walk away with, in lots of different terms, but not necessarily like the nuts and bolts of the course or program, then you move on to the features. And that’s where you would just talk about what’s included, like, what do they get out of the tangible things that they get in the program? And then what’s next?

Nicole Laino 

That’s okay. I mean, we’re kind of covering a lot. And let’s just go back to some of that and talk about where a lot of this comes from. So I would think that the prerequisite for writing a sales page is really having an intimate knowledge of why someone would buy and who that person is, and exactly who that person is. And what work do you suggest people do around finding that? I mean, I call it an aligned client. But what work do you suggest people do in order to get ready to build their sales page, and in order to get ready to build their program? Because one of the interesting things that I’ve found, I worked with a coach who suggested making the sales page before you made the program. And let the sales page, because when you’re getting into the mind of why someone will buy, you’re getting into the mind of the problems that they have and what you’re solving for, what the benefits are, what do they want, then you reverse engineer the program, so that you’re looking at it from that standpoint, rather than being like these would be cool things to have in the program. And then when you go to write the benefits, you’re like, I don’t know if it really solves for all of that. So what’s the work that you have people do? Or do you do this as a copywriter? Do you do any of the digging for them? What do people present to you in order to have a successful relationship with you and have you build a successful sales page for them?

Cheryl Oliver 

So it was quite a few questions.

Nicole Laino 

Yeah, go with that last one, and then we’ll and then we’ll backtrack. Sorry, I tend to free flow. So what does someone present you with, and have that be the most successful relationship?

Cheryl Oliver 

So some of my clients have got a lot of information already from the ideal clients. So like one of my favorite clients, she’s got a ton of information because she writes down and she tracks everything that people told her in the questions that she asked from her Facebook group. So she uses group leads. And everything gets put into a spreadsheet. So she’s got loads and loads, she’s got like 3000 people in your group. So she’s got about 3000 answers in the spreadsheet about like, what the problem is around sales. Some of my clients don’t have any of that. So, and I do a combination of, if they’ve got some of that, that’s great. I probably still will do a bit of my own digging because it’s always good to go and confirm. But if they don’t have any of that information, I’ll just do a bit more digging, but I do about a day’s worth of market research. Where I actually go and look through, I go and find similar courses, similar books on Amazon, I ask questions in Facebook groups, you know, just to confirm things, like whether people actually even realize what the problem is. If they have tried a specific solution, why that didn’t work for them, why they chose that solution. So multiple different, you know, questions, and then I go and ask these questions in like maybe three or four different groups, and then I go, and I copy out those answers, and then use them, save them out in a Google Doc, so that I can refer back to them. So that’s kind of where I start. And like I said, and then use that in combination with whatever the client actually has available. But to be honest, a lot of people don’t have that kind of information available.

Nicole Laino 

I was gonna say, do you most people have this? I know, you mentioned like, one of your favorite clients. But do most people, and you’re saying no, most people don’t have all of this? Because I find I make my people do market research, and they hate me for it until they do it. And then they’re like, oh, my God, this is gold. Oh, my God, I understand so much more, oh, my God, I understand how like, suddenly, the page starts to write itself or the content starts to write itself when you know what people want, when you know what their problems are and what you’re solving for, in their words, and you can start using their language, it makes it so much more specific. And so market research, it’s such an essential part, isn’t it of this process?

Cheryl Oliver 

I did a sales page for a discovery call framework. It was a low ticket offer. And it was all about inquiry, like being able to do discovery calls better. And one of my favorite parts of the sales page, I actually got from something that someone actually told me in a group, and she said, she hates discovery calls because they always feel like a bad first date. And I just love this, it’s such a great analogy. And it was one of the first things that I added on to the sales page. And that sales page did really well because I actually used someone’s real words and it connects with people because they’re like, yeah, it does. It absolutely does. It’s awkward. You always feel embarrassed, you feel, you don’t like asking for the sale. You know, you just get that absolute feeling where you’re like, oh, no, this person knows exactly how I feel. And so yeah, the goals that you find when you actually speak to people about their real problems is amazing.  A bad first date, isn’t it? A lot of discovery calls. That is such a great analogy. Because you are sort of like waiting there at the end of night being like you’re gonna invite me up? Do I ask myself? Do I kind of are you going? Am I gonna get an invitation? Yeah, it’s super duper awkward. So yeah, that that’s so powerful. And one of the things I just did an episode where I talked about this, but do you agree that the key to great copywriting is being specific? And what that means to the person. So that’s such a specific reference, bad first date. Like that conjures up an image. People are like, oh, yeah, it, it says all the words. It’s awkward. It’s uncomfortable for everybody. We don’t know where it’s going to end. Nobody knows who’s leading. You know, you’re worried about what they’re gonna think or overstepping bounds. So much is said from that one little line. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. So the more specific you can be, which obviously means that the person, the owner of the business, the person asking me to do the copywriting really needs to know who they’re speaking to. And that can be quite tricky, because I think people are very scared of niching down, they’re very scared of like, excluding people. But actually, great copy comes when you are really, really specific, and you can talk to just one person. So yes, that particular analogy was great, because it was just it really did conjure up all those feelings of like any, any person that’s ever done a discovery call will know that feeling, especially when you first start out. Like the bad first date analogy. I also read someone else’s sales page the other day, which I thought was amazing, where they were targeting designers. And she said something about never having to have final underscore final underscore final underscore client name dot file dot TXT record or something like that was just speaking about like the designers, and having a process where they are organized, so that they never have to have all these files that are just like random files on their hard drive that they can’t remember which one it is. And I just thought that that final final final text record or something was just so funny, because it’s absolutely what designers do. They do 100 versions of something and then they forget which version is the right one.

Nicole Laino 

Right? Yeah. And that’s so specific to that audience. That person that’s, if you’ve done it, you get it. If you don’t, if you haven’t done it, then you might not get it. But guess what, you’re not the person that they’re trying to sell this thing to. So you have to get out of that wanting to please everybody or wanting to sell to everybody and really honing in on the voice of that one person.

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, exactly. And that’s so that’s that famous saying, like, you’ve just tried to speak to everyone you speak to no one. And it’s a cliche at this point, because everyone, I’ve heard it so many times. But it is so true. Because that’s exactly what happens. We try to speak to everyone and I’ve read so many sales pages, where you could see they’re just trying to be really generic, because they don’t really want to, they don’t want to narrow down, they don’t want to speak to someone, and it just doesn’t end up really connecting with anyone.

Nicole Laino 

Yeah. And so is there something that you start with a sales page? So you went through a lot of the sections? Are you going at it section by section? Or do you start with kind of like, this is what I hope to accomplish with this, this is the voice that I’m trying to grab? Is there some sort of guiding, like principle or framework that you’re working within? Or are you just going section by section and chipping away at it that way?

Cheryl Oliver 

So I start with the market research, then I pull in a bunch of notes, and I put everything together where I kind of start going, this is the central idea of what I’m trying to convey. And especially when my client’s got a really great voice, I start pulling in bits of the things that she has said specifically about the offer or her client, and highlighting those in places and going this I really want to include. And when I do that, the feeling of the page starts emerging to me. And once I have that in place, I feel like I’m completely in my client’s voice and head, then I write. Because for me, I’m like, now I’m ready, I feel like I am Michelle, I feel like I am Cory. And I’m like, now I can write like them. And then I start. And I normally start in the middle of the page where we start talking about the introduction to the program, and the benefits and the features because that’s the easy section to write. Once you know the offer, it’s quite easy to write those parts. The hard part is the emotional connection. So the top part of the page, which is normally like your unique mechanisms, so your unique selling point, and the pain and the solution, those bits are the hardest. And then the headline I write absolutely last, because once I’ve written the whole page out, I can go to the headline and the headline flows a bit easier. But to start with the headline, you end up getting really stuck, because you’re like, it’s such a hard part to write.

Nicole Laino 

You go nowhere, you get stuck on that you’re just like no, it’s not that, it’s not that, no, it’s not that. And then you feel really defeated. Because you’re looking at a whole empty page underneath it, like, make yourself feel kind of successful. Get really clear on a couple of aspects. And I love what you’re describing about like bringing in some elements of the client’s voice and some of the benefits and some of those things that are more the low hanging fruit and the things that really shape what makes it unique. And almost like an artist would sketch first, almost like you know, where they’re gonna, they’re gonna do a rough sketch, then they’re gonna start to darken those lines, and they’re gonna start to shade and color things in. And then it all starts to like, come together and becomes something and then it’s got dimension, and then it’s got all this movement to it. And that is what you kind of want from a sales page, it should have dimension, it should have movement to it. It’s not just it isn’t just facts, because that’s not why people buy, people don’t buy because of like, it checks the box. I mean, I might do that with like, a generator. You know, if I’m like, I’m buying a generator for my house does it have this, does it have this, does it have this? But the reason I’m looking for a generator is because I don’t want to be without power. And I want that sense of security. And I want to feel like I’m prepared. That’s what’s prompting me to start my search. Once I get there, you know, you can tell me that it’s the most reliable and it can run all of these things. And it’s like, okay, you’re building up my security, then it’s like, okay, now does it take gas or electric? Is it this or that? Is it that or that? Then it’s about the features. So that’s kind of what you were describing, and that’s a really crude example. But, but that’s sort of what you were describing in a way that you’re warming people up. And the features are almost like a, you know, an now here’s a list of all the things that you got, but you should be sold by that point. And then it should be about like, okay, does it have all the things that I want? I want it. Let me just now look through. And then kind of the purpose of that is more to just be like, look at all it has. You’re sold, now look at this big list of things. It’s more than you could ever want.

Cheryl Oliver 

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I love your analogy of the artist. I’ve never thought about it that way. But that’s a really, really good way. I did want to also pick out on what you said about writing the sales page first before you even create the offer. And that’s one of the things that I was also taught in the certification that I did by my mentor, Julie Stoian. And she actually recommends that you do that. And I love that. And I’ve done that for my own girls, actually. And I’ve started doing that now because I want to create a new offer. And I started with the sales page. And as I started writing the sales page, I realized all the components that I need for this offer, and I was like, wow, this is going to be great, this is going to be a great offer. Because now I know what needs to go into the offer to make it hit all the points of the objections of the buyer, or someone who wants to write their first sales page, I have to go and I have to go, this is what they need. This is what they need. These are the things that they’re going to go, but does it have this? What if I can’t do that? What if I’m not techie? You know, what if I’m not a designer? What software am I going to use? You know, all of these things? So yeah, it’s very powerful.

Nicole Laino 

Yeah, well, it takes care of so much. If you make the offer, and you create the offer first, and you haven’t thought about how you will sell it, you’ve just spent a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of energy, creating something, and not knowing if someone is going to buy it or how. There’s so much power in building that part out first, thinking that through and really making that powerful, and then it’s kind of like, oh, well, I know it’s a no brainer, because I came at it from a place of how would I sell this. And most people don’t want to start there. Because we fall in love with the idea that we have. And the idea of like, when someone’s in my program, and I go through, you know, I’m making them, they’re looking to start their program, and they’re like, okay, I want to build out my program, and I hand them a sheet that’s basically about how to formulate their offer, and how they will sell it, and how they will market it. And they’re like, no, but I have to create the program. I’m like, no, no, no, you have to do this first. And then I tell them to do market research, and they’re like, what? I don’t want to do market research. And they all resist it. But it’s always the most valuable thing that you can do. And it takes care of so much. And it honestly will tell you if the offer is not worth making, or maybe, usually there’s a pivot in there someplace.

Cheryl Oliver 

Yes, yes, I’ve done a lot of, I’ve advised that to so many people. And I can’t remember anyone that actually took me up on it. When I first started out building funnels for clients. I started with very beginner entrepreneurs, and I was trying to help them build their first funnel, which I realized and then after a while. The reason I know so much about the ideal client now because I went to the very beginning and I was trying to help brand new entrepreneurs create their first funnel. And then I was like, these people don’t, they don’t know what their offer is, they don’t know who their ideal client is. There’s so many things that they need first before they could build the funnel. And then I was like, okay, so I need to reach a different client to be able to build funnels for people, because the beginners don’t, they’re not ready for funnels. And so I kept moving forward until I was like, oh, this is the person that I need to speak to because they’re ready now. They’re ready at this point, they’ve done this, they’ve done this, they’ve done this. But yet, there’s so many times where I was trying to build a funnel for someone and they were like, well, I’m just building out the program at the moment. And so it’ll be ready in like six months time. And then you can build the funnel and I was like, no, no, don’t do that. You don’t need to build it out, you need to build the funnel, let’s market it, sell it, and then you build it as you go. Because what’s going to happen is people are going to tell you what they need, then you’re going to take them through the program, you do the live trainings, and then you go okay, they’re struggling with this part, they probably need maybe one extra week on this particular part because it’s taking them longer or they’re struggling with this, maybe I should add something in to help them along. You know, rather than building out a whole program and then you take people through it and they go, this is not what I needed. This is not what I wanted, or it’s taking them much longer, or you put it the wrong way around, you know? They needed to work on this first before that.

Nicole Laino 

It’s such people pleaser energy usually when they’re in that space because they want to provide everything, they want to build out this program, they want to dazzle people with it. And they get caught up in that, and it’s such a distraction and a leak of their energy. It is not channeling it where it belongs, where you’re directing them to is where it belongs. Would you say that that’s one of the biggest mistakes you see people making is putting like the cart before the horse and building things out first when they go to, with their copywriting and sales page in general? Or are there other mistakes that you think are worth calling out?

Cheryl Oliver 

So when so when I was working with very beginner entrepreneurs then yes, I would say that they were spending, it was definitely part of like procrastination, imposter syndrome. You know, they were in creation mode. So instead of just marketing and selling, which is the scary part, it’s the hard part, they would go into creation mode. Which I’ve done many, many times. So I know exactly what that entails and what it looks like. And so I could recognize it. But that is, that was one of the mistakes that I saw early on, I don’t see it so much anymore. Now that I’m working with people that are a little bit further along, I would say that one of the biggest mistakes I see now is actually just not really doing any market research. So not letting, you know, thinking that they know their ideal client when they haven’t actually really spoken to them or even. And also data. Data is a big thing, like people not actually tracking their results and their conversions is a big thing.

Nicole Laino 

Right, right. And what type of conversion should somebody be expecting from a well performing sales page.

Cheryl Oliver 

So a sales page is actually converting perfectly well if it’s doing anything more than 1 or 2%. That would be your minimum and up to 10% is really, really good. And that, but that obviously depends on the warmth of your audience and a bunch of factors. But or to a cold audience, you would expect anything from one to 10%. And then of course, you know, if you’ve got a warm audience, your page can convert. I mean, I’ve got a coach that I work with, I work in her membership as a copy coach, she had a page that she had a great offer, really warm audience, the page was converting at 75%. So it is possible to to go all the way up to there.

Nicole Laino 

Wow, I like that. I’ll take a 75% converting sales page any day. You know, you heard it here first kids, market research, market research, market research, if there’s a headline for this episode, it’s market research. Because it really is so essential. And I think people, you know, there’s a combination of things. They don’t want to put people out by asking them to do interviews or to do surveys, they don’t want to appear like they don’t know, they don’t want to bother people. There’s all these reasons that we don’t dive into it. Sometimes it’s just more comfortable for us to hide in the back office than to step out front and ask people a question, what if they don’t respond? What if they don’t? What if they get upset that I asked them this question? What if I only had this one chance to ask them for a favor? And this was the one I asked them for? Guess what? It’s the most valuable favor you could ask of somebody. And you can offer them something in exchange. You can you can make it worth their while if you’re so inclined. But it will pay dividends. And is it, what are you having people look for in the market research, most of all?

Cheryl Oliver 

So, I ask them to, I would say mostly people’s own words, I think that’s the most important piece that you’re going to look for is describing the what they think the problem is, making sure that you know what words they use to describe that particular problem, the problem that you’re solving, or that you want to solve with your program. And what else? Mostly it’s the problem. I think what happens is often we think as the experts, we think we know what they think the problem is, we know what the problem is, obviously we know what the problem is. But we don’t realize that they might think the problem is something else. So that’s also something you need to look out for. So if you’re, say, a health coach, and you’re helping people with weight loss, you assume that they know that the problem is their mindset, because you’ve been doing this for 10 years and every single person you’ve ever worked with has a mindset problem. But the truth is that they still believe that the problem is a veteran have enough time enough money, or they got the wrong genes. They you know, whatever the multitude of reasons that we come up with that we can’t lose weight. But the truth is, it’s a mindset problem. So you’re speaking to the mindset problem and say, oh, you can’t imagine it. You can’t picture it. And the people are going, no, that’s not the problem. So when that’s really important when you’re doing market research is to make sure that you know what they think is the problem and so that you can mirror that back to them and say, yes, I can fix their problem. I can make it go faster, easier, quicker. And then on the back end, you go, oh, no, no, let’s talk about the mindset.

Nicole Laino 

Right, let’s sell them what they want, give them what they need. It also helps in your, you know, that’s how you can become a thought leader, is by being able to turn people’s perceived problems and their perceived solutions that they think would be their answer, and tell them it’s actually not that. I know why you think that. You think it because of x, y, and z. But what actually is happening is a, b, c, and this is how you would actually solve that. And this is why when you can start framing things that way, when you and start turning people’s ideas, thoughts, and their perception of their problems and solutions on their head and show them a new way of thinking about it. You’ve just now changed everything. Now you’ve interrupted the pattern. They think that they know, they think they know what they’re looking for. So they’re going down your sales page looking at the features being like, nope, it doesn’t have this, doesn’t have this, doesn’t have this. Well, tell them why. And then all of a sudden, now they don’t know what to look for. And now they’re looking at you as this amazing expert. Well, I never thought of it that way. That must be why nothing has worked for me so far. It’s such an opportunity.

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, I think another thing that people really struggle with is their unique selling proposition. So like, what makes them different? And it’s something that I absolutely, I completely understand, because it’s one of those hard things because you look at your own business and you’ve got no idea what makes you different. And it always needs someone else to look in from the outside and say, well, this makes you different, I could see it really clearly. That’s also reading the reasons why you mentioned it right at the beginning, about the fact that people, that you struggled to write your own sales pages, because you’re in it. You know, you’re in your business, and it is really hard, I struggle to write my own sales pages, because it’s my offer, I’m too close to it. You need someone to look in from the outside, and they can see things much clearer than you can. They can see why it’s special, they could see why it’s different, they can see maybe why your clients might not actually see the problem. You know, there’s so many things that you can see from the outside that you might not be able to see within your own business.

Nicole Laino 

It took me a long time. And I still don’t, like, I don’t think that I do it best. I can do it. I don’t think that I do it as well as somebody else can do it, me giving them the information that I have. Me like, I have done all that background work. So I could say like, this is my person, this is what they’re saying, this is all this stuff. This is what I do. This is how I do it. This is what they say about me. This is how I’m helping people, and then just let it go. It always comes out better than when I put it together myself. Because there’s an element of humble that doesn’t belong in your sales page. It requires you to be a little bit more boastful and bold. And that can be uncomfortable for a lot of us. It took me a long time to do answer the “this is why I’m awesome” question with power and confidence. I can do that when I’m in front of somebody, when I’m writing it out in a long form sales page where you’re forced to repeat it over and over and over again in all these different ways. And I’m just like somebody else do this for me. I don’t, I don’t need to, I know that I’m not doing this as well, someone can prop me up a lot better than I can do it myself in this format. So it is worth hiring out. It is worth being able to lean on an expert who can frame these things in the right way. Because there is an art to this. It isn’t just words on a page, it isn’t just a matter of like, you know, the right template, although that helps if you’re just starting. Templates are great. If you can’t afford a copywriter. And if you haven’t done that background work of knowing who your ideal client is, knowing what your message really is, and how you help people, then you have to start there. You’ll be tempted to go for the other stuff, you’ll be tempted to hire a copywriter and I did an entire episode on this, about like how I wasted a ton of money because I went to a copywriter too soon. I thought they would solve my problem, they cannot give you your message. They can help you find it. But you will pay for that. If you don’t have the funds to do that. That’s what programs like mine are designed to do are to get you copywriter ready, or to get you to the point where you can, you can fly and you can hire people to bring them in or you can write it yourself. But the goal is to offload this stuff to experts so that you’re increasing your conversions, but you’re increasing the effectiveness of everything that you do. And you’re taking away anything you’re not an expert in and you’re not doing it and somebody else is doing that for you.

Cheryl Oliver 

Absolutely. So you can concentrate on the things that you’re good at and maybe talk about niching and there’s niching for a reason. I niched into sales pitch because, and I’ve become really good at them because that’s what I do. And you are really good at being a business coach because that’s what you do. You’re not going to go and write sales pages because it’s not what you do and it’s a waste of your time. And you could be concentrating on what you do the best, right?

Nicole Laino 

Exactly. And I even niched down further where I specifically help people with their message. I help people get to that point of owning their power and the mindset and messaging side is what I said that I help with. I got more specific. And the more specific you get, the more confident you are because you’re like, this is my jam. And if you’re working in your jam then you can talk about it with anybody, you’re so excited that they can’t help but be pulled in by it.

Cheryl Oliver 

Yeah, you can do it, you can do it faster, and you can charge more money for it. It’s amazing. It’s a great place to be.

Nicole Laino 

Boom. That’s the headline right there, you can do it faster and you can charge more money for it. It is your high ticket offer at low rent in your space. That is what you want more of. That is how you have a sustainable business. And not one where you’re leaking energy and doing things that you really shouldn’t be doing.

Cheryl Oliver 

Absolutely. And that’s where I started out, trying to do everything in marketing. You know, I did Facebook ads, I did funnels, I did the tech. And now I do, I still build funnels, but I have someone who does all the automations for me, I just couldn’t be bothered. It’s not my fun part. I don’t like it that much. My husband does the design for me. So I don’t have to do that anymore. So all I do is copy and it’s amazing.

Nicole Laino 

It’s beautiful. And, but it was probably great experience for you to see how everything worked, to understand that. So if you are sitting here listening to this, and you’re like, oh yeah, I’ve just been, I’ve been like this jack of all trades, or Jane of all trades. And I’ve been, you know, dabbling in all of this stuff. Sometimes that’s how you find your zone of genius, you need to try on a bunch of clothes before you can find the dress that’s like perfect for you. And you know, you kiss some frogs before you find your prince. And that happens. But you also walk away with all that knowledge. And as long as it’s in the realm of what you are planning to do you’ve learned lessons and you understand things on a deeper level.

Cheryl Oliver 

Absolutely. I mean, I wouldn’t have realized that I enjoy sales pages most unless I tried every part of the funnel before I realized this is my zone. This is my favorite. So there’s nothing wrong with trying it out. And actually, in fact, I feel like if you’re starting a group coaching program, and I had one of my first group coaching programs, they were like, first you have to pick a niche. And I was like, I’ve never done this in my life before. How do I pick a niche? You know what I mean? Like, and you almost, I feel like that’s the opposite. I feel like you do have to try a little bit of stuff to see what’s your favorite before you can really niche down.

Nicole Laino 

I love that you brought that up. And I think this is a great point to leave it on. Because I always tell people, there are several places you can start. And usually what you have to do is you’ve got to dabble in each of the spaces a little bit. So you dabble in the aligned client and you start thinking about what that person generally, what that person looks like, you’re not going to get to that niche niche niche in the beginning. So don’t push yourself to unless you are coming in with an expertise that is so obvious who your niche is. But a lot of times it’s saying like, what is my genius? What am I so uniquely good at? And that might start at a high level and you need to break that down and make that more finite. And then you dance between the two. Okay, well as I get more dialed in on my genius, that’s kind of informing exactly the person. And that gets, each gets more specific with a little bit more playing in each space. But it isn’t like okay, go through all the niche work and get down to your targeted targeted niche and then start working on your expertise, or then start working on this. It’s a dance. It’s not all so linear. Although it would be so much easier if it were, it’s just not. It’s more art than science in a lot of these ways.

Cheryl Oliver 

Absolutely.

Nicole Laino 

Well, I loved this conversation, I loved talking about sales pages and talking about so much more. I love that we touched on some funnels and the ways that we’re, the ways that people can really, and my favorite topic market research. Because I love, love, love that you brought that up. And I swear I did not prompt her to say that, market research. Like if you take anything away from this, know your person more it’s going to inform every single thing that you do. You want to increase conversions? Know your person better. Get a handle on their voice and that will inform everything that you do. So thank you for driving that point home. Thank you for everything that you shared. I love this conversation and tell everybody where they can stay in touch with you and where they can learn more about you.

Cheryl Oliver 

Thank you so much for having me, Nicole. This was lovely. It was lovely speaking to you. I agree with everything you have to say. You can find me, I have a Facebook group called Smart Profitable Coaches and Course Creators, come and join me there. And my website is CherylOliver.co. Short and sweet.

Nicole Laino 

Beautiful. Well thank you so much for being here. And thank you, listener for making it all the way to the end of this episode. I’ll leave you with what I always leave you with. A little parting words, some parting words for you. You are only limited by the limitations that you accept and when you stop accepting those limitations, that is when you become limitless. So go out there and be limitless everybody. See you in the next one.